I was watching the news this morning before class when I heard a report about an elderly lady who died in her backyard in Long Beach yesterday. Police were on the scene at 1 a.m. this morning, investigating what they thought was a natural death (heart attack). Her neighbor’s saw her slumped over in her chair and assumed it was just her time to go. Little did they know that something more sinister was at play…
This unfortunate tale is common. Innocent bystanders are often victims of brutal crimes! I know that the police do everything they can do to help…… But, what if there were a real life vigilante, a SUPER HERO who punished criminals accordingly.
Are you for it or against it and why?
Citizen Hero’s are among us… do you believe it? Is it wrong or is it about time?
August 21st, 2008 at 7:17 pm
As an obviously big comic book junkie and a BIG fan of Batman (perhaps one of the most—if not THE most—plausible superheroes), I definitely think it’s cool … BUT …
Real life doesn’t work like it does in the comics; vigilantism in history hasn’t always … gone/ended well.
But the people in that video (really? that’s awesome
) are (like Batman, haha) working WITH the law. Stuff like offering road side assistance, or organizing protests … that’s basically just being a good citizen while wearing tights. Of course that’s good!
Well … the tights not so much, hee hee!
August 21st, 2008 at 7:21 pm
*hahaha*.. well tights are definitely more intriguing to say the least. A modern day Robin Hood would be cool even though it’s lawfully wrong.
I just can’t stand it when the police can’t do anything because of the “red tape”… I especially have a problem with um..child offenders who are let loose! That really chaps my hide.
August 21st, 2008 at 7:21 pm
It’s a fine line. I could write, quite a bit about it. I’m a crime fiction/true crime/CSI junkie.
WITA pretty much summed it up here though: Real life doesn’t work like it does in the comics; vigilantism in history hasn’t always … gone/ended well.
August 21st, 2008 at 7:34 pm
It just couldn’t work, because you’d get too many people interpreting what punishment to dole out based on their own morals, and as we know there isn’t one set of morals- everyone has their own code.
For instance, you might have a vigilante who thinks anyone having sex with an underage girl is worthy of death- whereas I think the spirit of the law is and should be to protect young children- and that someone having sex with a 16 year old is worth a light slap on the hand , but someone abusing an 8 year old deserves prison time. The only way to “agree” is to have set laws, and follow them meticulously…
It’s just a very slippery slope… it immediately makes me think of how brilliant the phrase “Who’s watching the Watchmen?” is- because that’s certainly what it would become- vigilantes out to serve justice against other vigilantes.
August 21st, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Very good point DB and Mandy.
I would like to also refer to animal laws… as in cruelty. I’ve heard of people kidnapping animals to get them out of horrible situations. Do you guys thing this is ok?
Also, I’d have to say that this is where I personally would get involved… I have a 10 year old and if anyone ever touched him in an inappropriate manner, I’d kill them… literally… that or beat the living sh*t out of them!
To add to that… if someone hurt my mother while she was peacefully sitting on her porch, I’d go after them.
I believe in laws, but to play devil’s advocate, what happens when the law can’t help?
August 21st, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Wow… I really don’t know what to say about this…
August 21st, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Remember the girl Eddie Murphy was supposed to marry in “Coming to America?”
“Whatever it is you like!” *lol*
Say “Whatever it is you like!” *lol*
August 21st, 2008 at 8:21 pm
They’re just asking for trouble. You meet the wrong crowd or stumble upon a real criminal. Somehow I don’t think it’s gonna end well for the Citizen Heroes, but hey, best of luck to them.
August 21st, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Good topic for a lively debate. What do we do with those who break the law? Is the legal system good enough to deal with this? Personally, I think not. There are too many loopholes, too many technicalities for the legal system to be as effective as it could be. Does this mean we need vigilantes? Part of me says yes, part of me says no. Like anything else, it would be abused by those who use it for their own selfish reasons. In a perfect world, it would work but in a perfect world, it wouldn’t be needed. Unfortunately, the system we have in place now is the best thing we have available to us right now.
Morally, everything you mention doing in this post above is fine. Legally, it’s wrong. This is part of the problem that goes back to the (not so) wise Founding Fathers who decided that morality could not be legislated. In a way, they were right, but today it seems that common sense is included with morals. The whole idea of “100 guilty go free so 1 innocent doesn’t go to jail” is a good idea, but has very negative consequences. It allows for those 100 guilty to go free for every 1 person who is wrongly accused of a crime even when it doesn’t have to be that way. I could go on forever about this one, but my bottom line is, if the vigilantes were completely selfless and honorable, then yes I’d be all for it. Otherwise, no.
August 21st, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Hmm, that’s interesting Jugen (mike *lol*)!
OK, how about this:
-Say you saw a little old lady being mugged, would you guys help knowing that the police may not get there in time?
-If you saw an adult beating their child in public, would you intervene… again, knowing that the police might not be able to make it in time… or would you wait for the police as the adult continued to beat the kid (which I’ve seen)?
I don’t mean “vigilante” as in taking justice in their own hands to murder for justice… that’s crazy… (and I wouldn’t murder a person if they touched my kid… I would just cut off every protruding part of their body)
… but if you saw something, would you step in?
… what about the people in the video? Do you think what they do is good, funny, ridiculous, creepy *lol*?
August 21st, 2008 at 9:03 pm
If we’re talking about stepping in to stop a crime in progress, I can honestly say that I would most definitely do something. I would be willing to accept any consequences or jail time, if it meant preventing another human being from coming to harm.
August 21st, 2008 at 9:12 pm
OK. What you’re referring to here is not vigilantism. In each case you mention, as a private citizen I am legally allowed to intervene provided I use the least amount of force necessary to handle the situation. Here in PA and in a few other states, I’d actually be allowed to restrain them with use of a firearm and if I felt the person posed a danger to someone, I’d be justified in shooting him/her. I believe California has even more lax laws in that respect than PA does.
And the funny thing is, if someone did something to your child, depending on the exact circumstances, you could get away with hurting them based on diminished capacity or something similar.
However, I think I know what you mean here. Would I do something to prevent a crime knowing that by doing so, I’d be committing a crime myself? That would be the moral judgement call that the law is not supposed to take into account. I would like to think I would take the high road no matter what the consequences would be in the end. This is where the legal system and me part ways. Judges should be allowed to use some discretion in certain situations to completely vacate a guilty verdict depending on circumstances. Juries should be allowed to take the humanistic part of a case into account when deciding guilty or not guilty of the crime charged. We should use a system more like Scotland and add a “not proven” to the possible verdicts. This means the jury believes the person may actually be guilty, but the evidence as presented is not sufficient enough to convict. This allows for another trial should more evidence be found.
The people in the video are admirable, actually. I think they are a positive influence at a time when all people have is hope…hope that someone somewhere actually cares enough to do something. They are not harming anyone and if they can brighten someone’s day, all the better. Who knows, you just may see me wearing some latex tights someday. LOL.
August 21st, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Well, a vigilante, or someone who takes the law in their own hands… yeah, I mean that…
…but I also mean, helping people and being a good citizen, as well.
If I saw a murderer jump the fence after stabbing an old lady, in all honesty, I’d react, taking the law in my own hands… would I kill that guy, no… but I’d react.
… and if anyone moonlights as a superhero/vigilante… please post “tights” pics!!
August 21st, 2008 at 10:00 pm
@ Mandy: Not to mention I don’t think anyone could ever wholly accept a superhero wearing tights—or a costume, for that matter (no matter how much it rocks). Hahaha, I bet EVERY time they would get SOMEone (new it town or just citizens who find it funny) who cracks a smile or laughs under his breath.
@ Druidblue: Excellent point about Watchmen.
Heh, and the heroes in Watchmen even make fun of themselves. (”Remember my costume? And that embarrassing skirt?” haha!)
@ Traycee: About what you said about being protective … I totally agree you have the right to. You have to protect yourself and the people (and animals!) you care about—and good citizens go out of their way to help others when they’re in trouble, too.
@ Orionsaint: Haha, seriously. Guys, watch Captain Blasto.
Great series—and it demonstrates how silly superheroes/villains would be in real life (but it’s also great because while it’s silly, it shows how much they mean to a LOT of people).
Kevin Conroy (the BEST voice of Batman, hands-down … has done his voice for years with animation, and most recently on Gotham Knight) has this great story about how he volunteered to help with relief for 9/11, and the only thing they had left was kitchen work—feeding all the workers. After a few weeks of doing this stuff, everyone (including him) was exhausted, and the mood (as you can surmise) was very depressing.
He talked to this other worker who asked him what his day job was, and he said, “Well, I’m an actor. I mostly do voice work.” The other guy said, “I KNEW it! You’re BATMAN!”
So he ran out all excited and told the other guys, “You’ll never believe who’s been cooking your dinners! It’s BATMAN!”
And someone said, “… Bullshit!” “Make him prove it!”
So from the kitchen Kevin said the classic Batman line in his bat-voice, “I am vengeance. I am the night! I am BATMAN.”
“… Holy %$@& it IS Batman!”
And the workers started coming up to him, all excited and talking (when the mood had been grim and bleak without much discussion before) about this episode and when that happened, etc. And the worker who first realized he was the voice of Batman said to him, “How does it feel to be Santa Claus?”
Kevin tells it so much better (it’s in the commentary on the Gotham Knight dvds or on Comic Book Club), but it’s a lovely story.
@ jugenjury: W00T PA residents, hahaha!
Go us! LOL.
And I totally agree with your points, man.
August 21st, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Hello Lovely Traycee and the rest of “the Girls Entertainment Network” crew. My answer to vigilantes is…
Vigilante’s like the ones on your video is way cool. If they are helping the community in a positive way… I’m down, but if it is an eye for and eye mentality, I’d have to disagree because now the vigilante is no better than the criminal. Plus what happens if the vigilante gets the wrong guy/gal? It’s best to leave that kind of punishment up to GOD; however, If they are helping citizen with rallies, flat tires and/or creeps, I give them 2 thumbs up!!! I grew up reading comic books, drawing them and even watching pro wrestling, so I’m definitely apart of the culture.
KENJO
August 22nd, 2008 at 12:05 am
Ohh, I like your art, KENJO!
August 22nd, 2008 at 2:43 am
I like this one:
August 22nd, 2008 at 3:26 am
Let’s just say that some people deserve more than what the system gives… and if no one else is willing to do it… well…
August 22nd, 2008 at 6:07 am
I would most definitely do something if I saw a murderer stab someone. Chances are, one of us would most likely end up dead. My thinking is, if he stabbed a woman, he’d have no problem doing the same to me. At this point it becomes “either him or me” along with the idea of protecting society behind me. If there was a way to restrain without killing, I’d definitely do that instead but in any case, I would do whatever I could to not let him get away. Part of it is, I witnessed the event with my own eyes so I have no doubt about his guilt. I guess in a way that would be a vigilante.
I definitely agree with rjac, some people deserve more than what the system gives. I feel the victim and/or victim’s family should have a huge part of the decision for the sentencing of the criminal. In my world, the victim(’s family) should be allowed to do back to the criminal what the criminal did to them if they so desire. Lock a murderer in a room, chained to a wall and let the victim’s family (if they so desire) go in with something to beat him with. That may sound barbaric, but it serves its purposes. Some sense of closure and punishment on the family’s part, and deterrent on the criminal’s part. That’s somewhat along the lines of vigilante justice, though, and considered cruel and unusual punishment.
Little shout out to my neighbor, whatistechnoagain.
I personally do hold a lot of the vigilante-type ideas. The only thing stopping me is because it’s against the law regardless how noble it may be. If I knew someone was a serial murderer, was tried and let go on a technicality, I would love nothing more than to track him down and beat him to within an inch of his life. Not kill, just terrorize and inflict severe pain. That would make ME the criminal instead of him, though.
The system is broken. It needs to be fixed. Vigilantes might be the spark needed to wake people up to that fact. Or it might do just the opposite depending on public opinion or the extremes of vigilantism done. If just one vigilante punished the wrong person, public opinion would turn on a dime. It’s a no win situation.
August 22nd, 2008 at 7:00 am
Ahh, so many responses.
WITA- I wasn’t really meaning just comicbook movies. The Boondock Saints is actually the first movie that comes to mind when mentioning vigilantes.
Anyways, vigilantes in movies are usually seen as the “good” guys or the guys taking care of justice that the police can’t find/handle….and I’m sure it happens a lot with the mafia/mob/gang type people a lot (IRL that is).
The thing is, I don’t believe in eye for an eye. When it comes down to it, that’s a big part of vigilantism. I don’t believe that the US had a super justice system; it’s definately broken.. however, I don’t think that gives room for people to go and fix things as they see fit. In the end, that just makes things more chaotic. If a father goes out and kills the person who raped his 13 year old daughter, it still makes him a murderer.
Our justice system is technically based on innocence until proven guilty (although, it rarely appers that way). Vigilantes work on passion and instinct. They don’t consider DNA, trials and witnesses. I sincerly believe with today’s science, our justice system COULD be much better.
Okay, well I’m going to end this with a quote I saw on a bumper sticker… it relates to war, but I think it has meaning on this topic as well “Why Do We Kill People Who Kill People to Show That Killing People Is Wrong?”
August 22nd, 2008 at 7:16 am
Vigalntism is risky business but:
Every citizen has an obligation to make their society a better place, working within the framework of the law - to that end, the world is full of citizen heros, we may not hear about them, but they’re there
Vigilantism can go extremely dark very easily, i don’t think it goes good places - but citizen heroism isn’t that, you might take responsibility for enforcing the law into your own hands, but that’s different than simply taking the law into your own hands. Citizen heros are doing stuff that is morally acceptable like helping old people across the street, saving people whose lives are in danger, etc. Good stuff that makes the world a better place. Totally laudable and awesomesauce.
August 22nd, 2008 at 7:23 am
I think there is a place for it but like everyone has pointed out, who watches the watchmen? Some people would get carried away. I do think that if you have the capability you should do your part for your community. My development has a number of elderly folks in it and one man kept falling down and each time, I ran out in my jammies/barefoot/whatever to get to him even though all I could do was call 9-1-1 because he was a big man.
The Bronx is currently having a problem with cats being brutally attacked (burned, beaten, etc). Bad people do need to be stopped but you can’t get caught in the crossfire which is a very real thing sometimes.
August 22nd, 2008 at 9:53 am
@ Mandy: I know.
I was going off another point, heh.
An eye for an eye (I don’t believe in that, either) is revenge—something you do for personal and selfish reasons, to make yourself (and only you) feel better. Vigilantism isn’t that (or at least it shouldn’t be, anyway).
And like Fred just said: Citizen heroes aren’t that.
August 22nd, 2008 at 10:19 am
True, citizen heroes aren’t vigilante’s, but I was going for the broad scope… ok, ok, ok… the guys in the video are awesome, and the fact that they wear costumes makes me want to fall in love with them!
… but like several of you said, some can take it too far. What if one of these guys goes over the edge?
I don’t believe in an eye for an eye either… maybe an eye for a black eye *lol* (did I say that backwards?)!
Seriously though, I love all your responses! If I ever become a vigilante or citizen hero, I’ll know where to go for info.!
P.S. does anyone know how to defy gravity without a jet pack? Just wondering!
August 22nd, 2008 at 10:23 am
Wita - I think that’s where we differ. I think vigilantes get the same adrenaline rush as a criminal… I think they DO do it for “selfish” reasons.. if only to get the high of doing it. Does that makes sense?
August 22nd, 2008 at 10:39 am
Take a ride on the space shuttle. LOL. Sorry, that didn’t help, did it?
I’m not really into the “eye for an eye” thing either. I’m also not into the “you’re a bad boy speech for an eye” thing. Part of the problem, as I mentioned, is that the punishments don’t fit the crimes or they aren’t corrective enough in their application. Drive drunk and put someone in the hospital, scarred for life and get 1 year suspended sentence with probation. Not good. Steal a loaf of bread to feed your kids because you can’t find work and they are starving…get 1 year in jail. Not good either. It happens both ways. I support the creative judges who hand down the “out of the box” sentences. The kids hanging outside a store blasting their rap music scaring customers away are sentenced to listening to Mozart for 2 hours a day for a week and writing a report on him. THAT is creative sentencing and it fits the crime. Thief breaks into a church to steal stuff for his drug fix sentenced to repair all damages he caused and maintain the church property for a year. Completely rehabilitated from drugs in the process. Would jail have done this? Probably not.
Some judges are too hard on crimes, some are too soft. Some aren’t creative enough. Too few impose the right sentence. The system could be improved through innovation and creativity. One judge in our area asked the repeat offender to come up with his own sentence. He did…6 months in jail, 6 months probation, and 1000 hours community service. The judge said he was going to give the guy 1 year suspended with probation and 500 hours community service, but went with what the guy said.
We also need more control over judges such as the ability to remove them from the bench easier if they consistently pass out inappropriate sentences.
My world is so much better…..LOL. I loved reading through all these responses. I think we’re all mostly in the same mindset.
August 22nd, 2008 at 10:58 am
^ Good points, but hard to generalize since most of the things you mentioned varies by state. Also, many states have mandatory minimum sentencing now, which doesn’t allow much room for alternative sentencing.
August 22nd, 2008 at 11:57 am
This inspires me ….
/wheels start turning
August 25th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Sorry guys… I was out of town and I just returned a few hours ago. I’ve read majority of your comments.
Before begin, THANKS Whatistechnoagain for the compliment & thanks Traycee for the love with the art, but you shouldn’t have… ;D
I’m going to have to add on to my first statement now that I understand the situation better. OK, if I saw a old lady getting mud of course I would lay a wrestling move on the perpetrator that would make him wish his mother never made the mistake of giving birth to him; I’d tornado DDT his face into the pavement making sure I permanently rearrange all of his teeth and hopefully dislocating his head from his spine… YES!!! BURTAL, but it sucks that there are idiots who pry on the weak. See, I initially thought the question was about a person or persons who lurk around the city looking for criminals to whoop up on…. Now the vigilantes in no better than the criminal. The vigilante is roughly doing the samething as the criminal, but using justice to justify their cause.
In a perfect world I wish there was Superheroes/Vigilantes like batman; however, the worlds not perfect, and if there was a batman, there would be a Joker.